Join Claire Koryczan Senior Partner at Let’s Talk Talent as she talks to Hester Pooles, Head of Legal at The AA about her leadership journey and how you can unlock the potential in you and others.
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Transcript of A journey through leadership podcast episode: How to unlock your leadership potential – diversity mentoring and growth as keys to unlock your potential with Hester Pooles
Jo Taylor
Hi, and welcome to the Let’s Talk Talent podcast. We’re going to be sharing over a series of episodes, tips and techniques, bringing our friends and family to share their stories, their experience of working life today, because together we can create simply irresistible organisations. Happy listening!
Claire Koryczan
Hello, everyone. I’m Claire Koryczan, Senior Partner at Let’s Talk Talent, and I would love to welcome you to the Let’s Talk Talent podcast. Because in today’s episode, I’m speaking to the awesome Hester Pooles, Head of Legal at the AA, member of the 30% Club, which is all about increasing gender diversity on boards and senior management teams, and champion for the Women’s Mentoring Programme. Welcome, Hester.
Hester Pooles
Hi, Claire.
Claire Koryczan
It’s lovely to have you here today, Hester. Thank you. Today Hester will be talking to us about her leadership journey; developing talent, motherhood, and many, many, many more things, and how she’s overcome some of those challenges along the way. I feel like your leadership journey… I’ve been on the journey with you for some of that. It’s really lovely to get the opportunity to speak to you about that today.
Hester Pooles
Thank you. I’m excited.
Claire Koryczan
Oh, my. Absolutely. So you’re Head of Legal at the AA, an organisation that’s been through a lot of change over the last couple of years, in addition to what all organisations have been through in terms of the pandemic. In our discussion together today, it would be great to hear how you navigated this, your leadership journey. I wanted to start today’s session with a quote from McKinsey Insights on leadership, which is, “Teams coming together have to see it as their shared future. The dynamic of the team and getting that right is where the magic is.” So with that in mind, Hester, tell us a bit about you and your leadership journey so far.
Hester Pooles
Thank you for your introduction. As you said, my name is Hester Pooles. I’ve been a lawyer for a while now. I trained in-house at a private practice law firm in London, and then went in-house quite quickly. So I’ve spent most of my career in companies’ in-house legal teams, usually consumer-facing businesses, and b2b. I’ve been at the AA for about three years. When I was thinking about my leadership journey, I was thinking how it’s quite easy to equate leadership with management. And actually, management has come fairly recently to me, in the sense that I had a team for the past year. But when I thought about leadership in terms of being a leader and exhibiting leadership qualities, if I look really hard at the progression that I’ve had over my career, and before, I’ve had those sorts of roles and opportunities, even back in education. Those would be the sorts of positions where I think I was doing something that other people look to or look to follow. So it feels quite natural that these positions have happened. I’ve learned quite a lot over the years about doing various different roles where I didn’t necessarily consider myself a leader. It’s more what other people saw in me, and how I could take those skills on board, and hopefully use them in this management leadership role.
Claire Koryczan
Yeah, it’s really lovely to hear you reflect and look back about those leadership behaviours, traits, and qualities. Because you’re absolutely right, Hester, they’re not always associated with managing people. Yes, that’s the obvious explanation around leadership. But those behaviours and traits can be the thread that runs through your life. Through our experience together, in terms of how long I’ve known you, Hester, that’s definitely something that I’ve seen. And that’s why I wanted to invite you on to the podcast, actually, because there is so much more to leadership than that. So it would be great to hear… You talk about your leadership experience coming from early on, it’d be great to hear some of those challenges or some of the lessons that you’ve learned through those experiences about yourself, about others.
Hester Pooles
I think that it doesn’t come without challenges, and some of those are quite painful. Some of those are lessons that are really hard fought. It starts really simply with being the girl that comes across as quite confident and perhaps that translates to some people as boldness or being decisive, which might be translated to bossiness. A lot of those are finding the environment where you can thrive – which actually I think is a paraphrase from Carolyn McCall – and making sure that you’re putting your best foot forward. But also trying hard not to really get burnt by the fact that you can’t please everybody. And feeling a little bit comfortable in the fact that maybe you do have a lot of energy, maybe you do have a lot of ideas, maybe you do like putting your hand up and speaking in a group of people. So some of those sorts of challenges have been interesting developmentally, but also there are good takeaways for me. So it was: be more aware of how you present yourself. If there are easy things that you can do to soften the edges, then actually, that’s good for you. You don’t have to just burst through the scene and do everything that you need to do in your own way. But you shouldn’t lose the essence of who you are. That’s really important.
Claire Koryczan
Yeah. And with that in mind, Hester, how would you describe your leadership style?
Hester Pooles
Oh, evolving! Evolving for sure. I think that one of the things I really thought of this year is I’m really interested in people. And I know that this has got to be a key running theme. I love talking to people. I’m genuinely interested in hearing them do well, and hearing their ideas, and wanting to think of ideas and connections that push them forward. So having those sorts of…with my direct reports, having those conversations that say, “What do you want to do next?” “How can I think of a way that can help you do that?” I find myself quite passionate about it. It’s interesting to me. I’d love to see people do more with what they have, or certainly reach where they can get. I’m pretty optimistic as a person, so I try and put that spin on things.
Claire Koryczan
Yeah. Amazing. It’s great to hear you talk about that in terms of really helping people to unlock their potential by understanding what motivates and drives them, where their energy is, what their aspirations are, and actually caring and taking the time to do that. Absolutely fantastic. There’s definitely not enough of that, in terms of those career-based conversations. Actually, on that, when you think about your career, have you had people throughout your career that have seen those things in you, and have had those conversations with you?
Hester Pooles
Yeah, for sure. It’s almost the most important part of the story for me. But you can’t get where you are alone. It is the truth. In my career, I’ve had mentors. You mentioned that I was on the 30% Club. I have a mentor that I still keep in touch with. She is a brilliant support and sounding board, but also we get on really well and like to have martinis together. I’ve had informal mentorships, where I didn’t really even know that this was the person I was going to for advice. But that’s what it was. I’ve had sponsors who talked about me when I wasn’t in the room. They were the people that suggested I go on the 30% Club. It was the person who put me forward onto a programme at the AA, which was specifically designed to promote female leadership. Having those people and having the open, trusted relationship, formally or informally, has been transformational for me. I am a completely paid-up member to the mentoring club. And I realised that it’s a two way process now that I’m a mentor as well, and you could really open and unlock a lot of things in yourself from having a successful relationship this way. I think everyone should have a mentor, or more than one.
Claire Koryczan
I couldn’t agree more. Absolutely. They can have such a positive impact. They can often see the things that we can’t necessarily see in ourselves. To have that observation from somebody who is objective and is able to see those things in you is very motivating and inspiring, isn’t it?
Hester Pooles
Yeah, really inspiring. I really believe the adage that you have to see it to be it. I think I’ve been really fortunate in my career that I have lots of people that have shown me an example of how to do things, and lots of people that I therefore know I can turn to if I have questions about it. And this is largely women. I can think of an ex-boss I had, Nadia, who was really instrumental in this. It could be mentors, it could be my mother, who didn’t have the same opportunities and was so keen that the sort of talents and skills I might have had wouldn’t be wasted, but that my drive would be rewarded. But equally, it wasn’t just women. I had a manager who, when I came back from my second maternity leave, was really thrilled that I was back and really helpful in accommodating the sorts of requests I had about what I wanted for my career. Talked really frankly about what balance might look like for me. So having those sort of supportive relationships, people that you trust, people that you want to reach out to is really key.
Claire Koryczan
Definitely. It’s really interesting that you mentioned coming back from maternity leave. Talk to us a bit about that journey and what that was like coming back, particularly after the second Mat leave, because you came back into a new leadership role.
Hester Pooles
Yeah, I don’t know if it’s tremendously typical. But what happened with both of my maternity leaves – I’ve got two small boys – was… It’s probably no accident that I had read Sheryl Sandberg’s Lean In before my first maternity leave. I was really interested and focused on the idea that, instead of thinking, “I’m going to be off for a certain amount of time, I should probably start pulling myself away from it,” and all the working things, it was the opposite. It should be, “let me lean into this, let me really, almost work with more enthusiasm.” Let me get really interested in my job, make sure that people know that I’m interested in my job, because it means that you’re more excited to come back to work rather than dreading it. And it means that people are excited to have you back at work. So I really bought into that. I really enjoy what I do. I took about six months off with my first son, came back, and when I was thinking about it, I think I got a promotion after that one, which was lovely. It was really nice and showed confidence in me, and it made me feel good to come back. As you say, my second maternity leave was at the AA. I came back and it was all change because the company had delisted. Our internal legal team management had changed and opportunity presented itself. It sort of feels like things fall into place. But in truth, again, having had a manager, Jos, who was really interested and supportive in my ambition to become a Head of Legal at some point, meant that he would give me the opportunities when they arose to show some of these talents that could be used in that role. Then I was interim for a few months whilst we were reshuffling the structure, and then made permanent last year. But again, it felt like this vote of confidence. “We’re so pleased that you’re back. We are putting confidence in you. And you are putting confidence in us again.”
Claire Koryczan
Fantastic to hear because that’s not always the case when people come back from having maternity leave. It’s wonderful to hear that that’s been the experience.
Hester Pooles
I’m so lucky that way, actually. It’s just worth noting that I realise that I’m lucky. I had these relationships. I had these people who were open to taking on somebody who then had two small children to do that sort of role. But I quite quickly saw when I came back that not everybody would have that same opportunity. And that actually, there are conversations, even with a trusted manager that sometimes can feel uncomfortable. You know, those opportunities when you say, “I’m really feeling torn about the fact that my kid cries every time I drop them off at nursery. How am I going to balance these things? Do you think that I’m focused enough at work?” You know, lots of the sorts of challenging conversations that working parents have every day. But if you were to talk about them with your manager, you might worry that they think your eye wasn’t on the ball or things like that. So I joined one of the employee networks at the AA called the Balance Network, and really pushed an agenda with them. But it luckily got good reception, which was trying to figure out a way that we could give more informal support outside of the management side for women returning back from maternity leave, that it hopefully might open to any returners, specifically family leave returners. Last month we managed to get a pilot scheme in, where we match any returner who would like to have an informal buddy support, they’ll be matched with a volunteer parent from the organisation. And this would ease them back into the workforce, essentially. It’s a transition point and a really hard one. I think that a lot of people, a lot of women especially, have had stories where that transition has been so bumpy that they’re out of work, because they don’t want to work in that place. They don’t feel like the employer gave them the rope they needed to feel supported.
Claire Koryczan
Yeah. And that journey, coming back in, having empathy and understanding for the challenges on that road back in makes such a massive difference. It’s massive. It’s wonderful to hear that you’re part of that initiative, and really helping to support people returning to work. So on that, and looking at your experiences, and the mentors and the support that you’ve had through your journey: what do you think is important in retaining brilliant talent now? Because as we know, it’s a candidate’s market. I think something like 41 million people voluntarily left their jobs last year in 2021, which is, I think, bigger than the population of Spain or something ridiculous. There’s a lot going on in terms of talent. So what would you say is important in retaining brilliant talent now?
Hester Pooles
I don’t really think anybody is ignoring the Great Resignation. For me, I think it’s about the importance of progression, and the importance of connection. I’d read a while ago that most people leave their jobs because of their manager. And it made me feel like that meant there was this huge disconnect between a manager and people that report in to them. I think it’s drawing on what you said about the empathy point. But it really just is connection. These people need to feel like you’re invested in them. And to go further than that, they need to feel like they’re going somewhere. It’s probably going to have lots of different factors for each individual, because everyone’s unique. But if you give somebody the confidence that says, “I see that you’re on a journey. We may not be the full part of that journey. Let’s help you get where you need to be,” then I think that’s the environment that they can thrive in. It’s the connection that they seek.
Claire Koryczan
Yeah, definitely agree, and taking the time to have those conversations, and really understand what those aspirations are, and how the organisation, how you as a leader can help on that journey. Also thinking about the impact of those conversations, from your experiences you’ve described, the positive impact. The way that it feels when somebody believes in us, and gives us that opportunity is massive in terms of driving our confidence levels up but also helping us to fulfil our potential as well. So on the flip side of all of that, Hester, what would you say keeps you up at night? Classic kind of management question!
Hester Pooles
What keeps me up at night? I mean, the truth of the matter, is, it’s not necessarily the management stuff at all. There might be the ad hoc work matters that do. But truthfully, the thing that keeps me up at night is the balancing act, and whether or not I’m getting it right. At different times, I devote quite a lot of mental energy to this. I work full time, and I work for a relatively demanding job. I have a husband that works full time, and we have small children. It’s whether or not everybody is getting what they need to the right sort of level that they need. It’s trying hard not to compare yourself to other family situations, if it doesn’t serve you. It’s whether or not you are getting enough exercise. Whether or not you have enough connection with your kids and being present with them when you’re with them. It’s whether or not you’re giving enough of your energy to your work. It’s whether or not you’re spending time with your spouse so that that’s a meaningful relationship that continues. It’s have I got enough time for myself in this as well? Let alone maintaining friendships and ensuring that family’s okay. Is my house clean enough to invite people over? Those sorts of things. There’s a lot to it, there’s a lot to that mental load, and it weighs heavily. But equally again, I feel really, really fortunate that my relationship is a true partnership. So instead of me thinking, right, now I need to do the shop, and the laundry, and the cleaning, and the cooking, we have a real partnership to the point where some of the thoughts that go through my mind are, am I doing enough cooking this week? Are we doing equal amounts of laundry? That was something I realised fairly early on, and perhaps again, Sheryl Sandberg to thank for bringing this to the fore. Having an honest conversation with your partner that says, “I have ambitions for my career and this is what I’d like for my future. Can we talk about this and align it because a family is also what we want to build together?” How does this work so that one person isn’t necessarily prioritised over the other is a really important thing. I’m immensely proud – and I don’t know if that’s the right sense of the word – that my husband took share parental leave both times, and three months of shared parental leave. He works for a software company. He was the very first person to take shared parental leave for our first son there. And in fact, the first spouse of somebody in my company at the time to take it. So they were sort of teaching each other, I think, about what this looked like. But for him, it’s not uncommon in his company now to take shared parental leave, because it’s the ‘see it to be it’ thing. If you take that time off, even at a manager level, your career doesn’t have to suffer, and you can have this connection with your child. What it meant at home is that I went back to work. When I was still breastfeeding, for example, I felt strong emotions about that. But I never felt real, intensive fears and guilt because my child was with somebody that I trusted was in the best possible care. I think that a really important part of why I could go back to work and really push ahead was that my heart wasn’t truly torn. It was protected and supported, and our children now don’t naturally go to one parent and say, “Mummy can fix everything.” Actually, truth be told, it’s an even split between one child who goes always to mummy and one that always goes to daddy. But it’s really important that you have these people around you. It doesn’t have to be a spouse. And it doesn’t have to be family, if you live away from family, albeit that I am now fortunate that we live quite close. It’s the sentiment of a village. You have to have some sort of support structure around you, and recognise that even if the support structure is after school care, or Breakfast Club, even if it’s a friend with a child the similar age who is helpful for advice. I think the theme is looking for support and offering it as well. You can’t lift yourself up unless you lift others up as well.
Claire Koryczan
I love that sentiment, thank you for sharing that. I think it’s so interesting to hear your journey. And also the realities of the whole self as well, not just about work, but also life outside of work. The common thread through all of that is around communication, and having really good effective communication. That is a really important leadership quality to have as well. On that point, what would you say are the other important leadership qualities? Because obviously, you’ve been demonstrating the behaviours from early on. So what would you say, Hester, as well as communication, are the kind of core leadership qualities that are important?
Hester Pooles
I think transparency helps. I think that people want to feel included in what you’re doing. Even if they don’t need to know the details. I think that links to a part of people worrying when they feel like they haven’t got any sort of control. But if you are transparent about it, it feels like people are in on it. So they may have a little bit more control over the situation. I think resilience is really important for leaders, because there will be bruising times at one time or another. You don’t have to like it, but accepting the fact that a bad phase happens but it’ll pass is really key as well. Maybe I’m not right here, but I also think that the right attitude is what makes a good leader. I was going to say positivity and optimism. But I would say that I have had good leaders who don’t display those. But attitude makes a really big difference. If you want people to follow, you need to be somebody that is worth following. People like to see themselves in something exciting and positive and fun.
Claire Koryczan
Definitely. And it’s infectious. Right? That energy, however, it’s transmitted, positive and negative, has the ability to either pull people along or push people away. Definitely, definitely. So as we come towards the end of today’s podcast, Hester, what are your top tips for aspiring leaders or people that are new into leadership?
Hester Pooles
I think it’s about putting your hand up. I think it’s about being really open, but be the volunteer. If an opportunity arises, then put your hand up, put your hat in the ring. You don’t know what sort of new interests it’s going to spark. You don’t know what new connections you could make there. You don’t know what fun times await. And the more experiences you get, the more people that you meet, the more connections you have. It’s all a learning tool. I think that the connection, the communication, I’m finding as a leader, that it is almost my most important thing. It’s creating these relationships. It’s about knowing who you want to be with and thinking how you can support those around you. For us in Legal, it’s how we add value. And every day I try to think of examples that might steer me in that direction.
Claire Koryczan
I totally agree with you in terms of the fact that everything in life is relationships. And actually, the more that we get into more senior positions, how we’re able to effectively communicate, how we are able to create those connections becomes even more important as well as taking others on that journey. So thank you so much, Hester, for being with us today and for sharing your journey. It’s been absolutely brilliant to hear your story and I’m sure others will find it very inspiring and insightful as well. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Hester Pooles
What a pleasure, Claire.
Jo Taylor
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